It's a relief to see that Ramsgate is placed 5th and Margate 7th in a report listing the countries poorest coastal resorts. I would have thought with increasing crime, notoriety for drug abuse, we here in Thanet would have come top.
I think how bad would things have been without the sterling efforts of Clive Hart, Bob Bayford and the now discredited Sandy Ezekiel.
Celebrate! Things are on the up! Its official Skegness and Blackpool are the pits!
It's interesting that Ramsgate is rated as more deprived than Margate. Over the last few years Ramsgate has been ignored whilst money galore has been poured into Margate. Sadly, the money poured into Margate has been wasted because the people controlling the money taps haven't got a clue about the best use of that money. They've squandered millions (and continue to squander millions) on the Turner Centre, and they've spent a fortune regenerating the "Old Town" only to turn it into some twee museum with little of interest or use to local people. The worst decision they made was to construct Westwood Cross, which stripped the heart out of Margate's shopping centre; a dreadful mistake which they are now planning to waste millions of pounds trying to rectify.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, Ramsgate has developed a relatively successful shopping centre, boosted by a Friday/Saturday market. The harbour area has become a fantastic tourist attraction and there is currently a boom of wealthy Londoners buying up heritage properties to live in and renovate. Most of this has been done without the help of the people controlling the money taps. Where they have been involved it has been a disaster. The Pleasurama debacle continues to blight the beach area, courtesy of both political parties, and the idiots who allowed the ferry company to run up massive debts continue to claim large salaries.
The message is clear. Councils are useless at predicting what will and won't work in terms of regeneration. They shouldn't be allowed to spend public money on it. Margate needs private investment and the only thing the council should be doing is promising to help private investors by cutting red tape and being constructive in their dealings with people who want to improve the area.
0828.KCC have responsibility for the Turnip Centre, but the money would have gone to another part of the country, if Kcc had not come up with the project,
ReplyDeleteTony, we would have been top if someone had told them of our green councillor!
I'm heartily sick of the pathetic line being peddled to excuse the waste of money on the Turner Centre. Essentially, what you are saying is that if we hadn't wasted all of that money, someone else would have. I would argue that nobody should be wasting money, particularly when we are in the middle of a recession. Every penny wasted on a vanity project could have done some real good somewhere in the country. Incidentally, KCC were not wholly responsible for the Turnip Centre. It was backed to the hilt by local councillors of both parties who remain responsible for the ongoing waste of millions of pounds, whilst simultaneously whingeing that there isn't any money. Rank hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteSame old knock the TC plus now it is WWCross the Turner has had ONE MILLION VISITORS and having come through the Old Town today and it was Rammed and Westwood cross is always busy do these anonymice people not get out. The TC is possibly the best thing to happen to Thanet and all people keep doing is decrying it. Grow up it is here for goodness sake stop knocking everything and do something to help anything would be better than the endless rants that all sound the same and are Rank hypocrisy them selves You moan but I dont see you doing anything other than moan
ReplyDeleteand we 18:07 are sick of the rank stupidity that people show who don't understand how the Turner Centre was funded and what would have happened to the money if it hadn't been spent in Thanet.
ReplyDeleteKCC, SEEDA, Arts Council England and the EU actually funded the centre with MONEY, TDC provided the land. All money was earmarked for an Arts centre somewhere in the South East (hence the SEEDA money).
Please feel free (or shut up) to provide the evidence that there is an ongoing waste of millions of pounds with regards to the Centre.
One million visitors (even if true) equates to a £4 a head subsidy, on running costs alone, never mind the £20 million building costs of Mk1 and 2 and the donated land, roadworks etc. KCC, Seeda, Arts Council and the EU are all tax-payer funder. It is not fairy dust. The argument that if the Turner money hadn't been spent in Margate it would have gone elsewhere is the same reasoning spouted by a man in a pub buying a stolen telly, saying if he hadn't someone else would have done. Accusing those who believe the project is an expensive folly of being stupid hypocrites and suggesting they shut up is hardly reasoned debate.
ReplyDeleteIdiots who think that KCC, SEEDA, Arts Council etc. conjure up money from thin air. It all comes from the taxpayer and it could all have been put to better uses. As for 1 million visitors, you could open a toilet block which had 1 million visitors. It doesn't mean it helps the local economy. In truth most of those people would never have gone in if they'd had to pay or if it hadn't been raining. Square the circle - if the Turner Centre has been such a great success, how come Margate is the 7th most deprived coastal resort in the UK? It was supposed to be the catalyst for regeneration - the survey provides evidence that this hasn't worked. Heads must roll.
ReplyDeleteAhhh.. so your gripe isn't about the Turner Centre, it's about what you consider the waste of the Tax payers pound coins. If we step out of reality for a minute and move to the utopian society where you would like to live I will agree that yes the money would have been better spent on other things.... While we are out here in cloud cuckoo land can we also say that the money spent on the Military should be better spent, the money wasted on the War on Drugs better spent, the salaries of EVERYONE in Politics better spent... oh the list is endless!
ReplyDeleteRight, back to reality where, because you aren't an elected official with the ability to make sure that money is spent where you personally would like to see it spent, we have to deal with the fact that they built the thing... so arguing that it hasn't been a catalyst for change makes you a bit daft in my book, you only have to look at all the little things that have changed in the last few years around the old market place, piazza and lower high street to see that things have been regenerated. I suppose you'd argue that they haven't been regenerated to your own personal satisfaction?
No, I would argue that many of the Old Town businesses have been regenerated with grant aid - again paid for by us. My personal satisfaction is of no consequence - the fact that the rest of Margate has been largely ignored in the spending frenzy is of far more importance. Delighted, though, to learn that those who do not accept the Turner Contemporary is all it claims to be have been downgraded from stupid to a little bit daft. I use the plural, because I am not 08.28 or 20.51
ReplyDeleteI'm not anonymous (above) but I can't see the logic of Rob's position either. I can't see that it matters whether a couple of shops selling sandwiches and decorative tat have opened in the old town. What matters is that the most recent survey tells us that Margate remains one of the most deprived seaside towns in England. In other words, whatever the Turner Centre may or may not have done, it has not resulted in the regeneration of the town, as we were promised it would. On this basis it is perfectly reasonable to argue that the money spent creating and running the Turner Centre has been wasted. It is perfectly reasonable to argue that the same amount of money spent, for example, on building an indoor leisure facility or a theme park, would have produced a better outcome.
ReplyDeleteThose who were against the project were not listened to and those who backed it promised that it would lead to regeneration. Now it's time for a day of reckoning. It's called accountability. Those who backed it were wrong and they need to leave office before they cause any more damage.
Blackpool is the No.2 in that survey, yet has more people visit it each year than any other coastal town.
ReplyDeleteAlso you are quoting facts from an ONS survey taken in 2010, before the Turner Contemporary opened.
Anonymous number 1 here. You are making the fundamental mistake of equating numbers of visitors with prosperity. There is no correlation. In my opinion Blackpool is a dump. I've been there and I won't be going back. The number of people visiting is immaterial. Dover is one of the busiest ports in the world but, again in my opinion, the town is a dump. The number of people passing through is of little benefit to the town. By making the Turner centre free entry they have ensured that they can claim massive numbers of visitors (although the numbers claimed are conjecture because they don't record the numbers of people entering). However, there is no evidence that the visitors passing through the Turner Centre have or will produce regeneration in Margate. I don't blame you for making this mistake. In Thanet, only a few people actually analyse these things and challenge the facile assumptions which are being made. By the way, if I'm right, and the evidence is in my favour, it follows that massive numbers of people using Manston would not produce regeneration of Ramsgate; an assumption which was made nearly fifteen years ago and has, to this day, been accepted by virtually all of our elected representatives.
ReplyDeleteI agree Anon 21.16
DeleteThe country is only just beginning to awaken to the reality of Thatcher's legacy. Public money will not trigger regeneration. If it could then surely the Welsh Development Agency would be crowing its successes today ?
And private investment ? In a country post Thatcher post Blair with nigh 50% of its workforce graduates in useless subjects. What's to invest in ?
Who would invest in a Thanet workforce anyway ? What skills has the area to offer ? What work ethic when patently the area's unemployed people haven't even moved to find work. Why invest in people who sit back, do nowt and wait for provision ?
My, we do conjure up some strange old figures to support arguments. Typically, 50% graduates in useless subjects is a wildly inaccurate statement. Less than 50% of our young people attend university, about a quarter of those drop out and, of those graduating, nearly twice as many do so in traditional subjects as those with what some term mickey mouse degrees.
DeleteMerely pointing out the stupidity of using data prior to the TC opening and then saying that it shows the TC hasn't created any regeneration.
DeleteObviously the ONS stats show that just because a lot of people are going somewhere doesn't necessarily lead to prosperity. Hence why I wrote the line!
In general terms regeneration starts from within, so we can blame ourselves for the state of the area, we obviously haven't made our voice heard and continued to elect representatives who are more self serving than electorate serving.
Maybe we need to embrace community action projects more, use social peer pressure to force negligent landlords to maintain the upkeep of their property (Freshwater?)... whatever we do maintaining the status quo of electing people into positions of "power" where they are ineffective surely isn't one.
Allan It was Blair's dream to send 50% to university.
DeleteYour notion that a "Traditional" degree is a useful degree is one irrational basis for your attempt at a response.
The Institute of Electrical Engineers published research on this some 30 years ago. 93% of management in their industry totally unqualified either by education or experience. 3.5% with business, accountancy or arts qualifications. Only 3.5% with technical qualifications.
UK with one tenth the number of students of engineering of either France or Germany.
More students of Drama Studies than of Electrical or Electronics Engineering.
Now Thatcher's legacy is coming home to roost. The largest and most destructive restrictive practice was the one she protected. Management right to manage. Not surprisingly UK got managed deeper and deeper into the cack.
Thatcher also broke the military guidance do not reinforce a weak position. By giving handouts (Council House purchase discounts) to low risk parochials. An economy that over rewards and promotes the growth of low risk parochialism (Council house tenants and public sector workers) is bound to fail.
Ian Gilmour and many others were trying to put the brakes on Thatcher but she was a very determined quack. Even if she hit on some likely medicine she would prescribe it in fatal overdose.
What was happening at the time of the IEE Report Allan ? USA sent agents into UK, post Falklands War, to make the cases that later succeeded in the USA Courts against major UK manufacturers. US Military recovered huge sums of money off rogue managed UK manufacturers.
Even our allies were saying "The game is up you are definitely no longer the workshop of the world. You supply sub standard crap to the US Military. Your management orchestrated falsification of test data. And we nailed you UK"
Look at Felixstowe. Marvellous thinking going on to compete with London. Extra rail lines. Millions of lorry miles per year taken off road. But is that good competitive thinking more about the containers of imported goods than of exported goods ?
Rob. "Negligent landlords" ? You want to see the email alerts I get from my residential landlords assn. Average skippy tenant leaves 11 grand of rent arrears and 11 grand of damage. A couple of weeks ago there was a tenant alert for a skippy who had accumulated £165,000 of rent arrears !
Look up the price of a BTL mortgage. BTL insurance. Annual Gas Safety Cert. You must forecast to expect benefits tenants to steal 4 months housing benefit per property per year. They will try to threaten to get a Section 21 notice to quit as that helps them jump the social housing queue.
When Universal Credit rolls out then neither social nor private landlords will be able to get housing benefits paid direct. Rent arrears will soar. Now is the time to send keys back to lender and push them into appointing rent receiver to manage the property. And we hope if enough landlords do this it will make Northern Rock look trifling by comparison. Because the lenders will be looking at about 11 grand per property to repair tenant criminal damage. And be facing nil income because of Universal Credit. Add it to the landlord bill. Once they have a rent receiver in then Landlord can go bankrupt and walk away. That is the reality. So blather away about your blame victim the rogue landlord. fact is landlords have carried a huge burden for the state for a long while and now looms crunch time.
Too much crap to dispute on a blog, but I guess it is OK as long as the writer believes it. Meantime, in the real world, life goes on.
DeleteSo by definition the estimated one million visitors dont count, The people who work in the TC dont count the suppliers of food the printers of books sold there the suppliers of toilet paper the manufacturers of the chairs in the restaurant the suppliers of all and sundry train ticket sales bus seats etc. etc. do not enjoy the fact that they may not be employed if those million people just sat at home. Regeneration is happening and unless we get behind it rather than keep regurgitating the same old moans it will fail, and I personally think that is what most Anon commentators would love to see, then they could go, I told you it would never work.
ReplyDeleteTypical patronising cr*p - try to bully people into supporting what is going on by telling them that it will all fail if they don't support it. There is NO EVIDENCE that regeneration is happening and so, there are no grounds to demand that people get behind it. The million visitors do NOT count unless they produce a boost in economic activity and, I'm afraid, there is no evidence that this is happening. They have only gone into the Turner Centre to shelter from the rain.
ReplyDeleteRegeneration can't be achieved just by shouting about it and demanding that everybody gets behind it. You need some substantive industry to base it around and this is where Thanet has failed miserably. I have to disagree with an earlier poster who knocked the Welsh Development Agency. If you visit Wales you will find industrious business parks all over the place which were set up by the WDA. Many large international companies have located factories and offices in Wales, as a result.
By comparison, Thanet's business parks are empty and unused. I don't know what SEEDA ever did for Thanet but I suspect the money used to fund the organisation only ever produced benefits for West Kent and Maidstone. We need a proper development agency for East Kent, run by people who have experience of attracting real businesses to deprived areas i.e. not the crop of dead-heads who thought that doing a deal with SFP was good for Ramsgate.
All of which is little more than knocking with no real plans for any alternative ideas. Regeneration cannot be achieved by shouting about it the man says, but then comes out with classics like 'We need a proper development agency.' Of course we do, but any real ideas how to get one.
DeleteMeantime, the Turner, mainly a KCC project, attracts people to Margate and has helped bring some revival to the Old Town and Harbour area.
Don't you just love the idea that a million people have visited Margate just to use the Turner to shelter from the rain? The person who wrote that then goes on to call others dead-heads. No mirrors in your house chum?
DeleteAM you are right the million did not go there to shelter from the rain, they went to use the toilets.
DeleteEven better, Anon, a million people have visited Margate to use the toilets at the Turner. Just goes to show how few public conveniences there are left elsewhere. Pretty expensive pee if they had to travel far and, of course, they must have been visitors as all the locals have a loo at home.
DeleteThere is something else people forget when talking about the 1mm visitors to turner- what's the comparison against margate visitors before it opened? The answer of course is our supine council don't actually count, survey visitors, so they save no idea if they would have visited anyway.
ReplyDelete1702 makes. Good point. ONS deprivation was measured before turner opened. How bad things will look when the 2013 survey comes out and margate has not budged or gone down.
Tell me, 08:00, just what do you do for happiness and why don't you move away?
DeleteI give up, this is just a futile moan by people who do not want Thanet to improve they will only have any happiness when they see someone fail because they are happy doing nothing and hate seeing anything succeed.
ReplyDeleteNo-one wishes things to fail, but they have every right to question the merits of spending millions on a project which appears to have benefitted only a tiny section of the community. Telling people to move, dismissing their concerns as a futile moan, and claiming knowledge of their thinking would suggest a lack of confidence in your argument.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know it only benefited a tiny section?
ReplyDeleteIt has benefited a lot more than you are prepared to give it credit for, ask the clubs that have used it, the school kids that have been, the college students who have worked on projects, ask the local businesses that have served teas, coffees, cakes, lunches and dinners. All because it is there and not somewhere else.
It's easy to say that the money should have been spent on something else but that was never going to happen, it was money earmarked for Art, you may not like that fact but that is the truth, it was never going to go on anything other than it and I am grateful that it was spent here rather than somewhere else in the South East.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/welcome-to-margate-cultural-commentator-iain-aitch-reflects-on-his-hometowns-regeneration-8779092.html
ReplyDeleteWhat is required here is evidence and accountability. Before embarking on a regeneration project where millions of pounds of public money are to be spent it would be prudent to identify the criteria which will be used to judge the success (or otherwise) of the enterprise. In the case of the Turner Centre, our myopic leaders failed to do this and so, they have no idea of whether it has been a success or not. Instead they wave around hypothetical visitor figures, as if these mean anything in the absence of control data. I suppose I should expect this of politicians. By and large they are not scientists, mathematicians or engineers. They don't understand numbers, calculations or statistics and prefer to spout gut feelings and intuition in place of facts. In the case of the Turner Centre there is a more sinister reason for avoiding the evidence; if you don't have evidence that it has failed and has been a total waste of public money, you can't be held accountable for squandering all of that money.
ReplyDeleteWe may not be able to prove the impact of the Turner Centre, one way or the other, but we can look at whether Margate is undergoing regeneration by looking at the money coming into the town. One way of doing this is to look at the total of the business rates. If there are more successful businesses the amount flowing into the coffers will be greater. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up; there's no evidence that more money is being collected. Case closed methinks.
mmm... so all the shops, little cafes, restaurants, and a hotel that are now open on Marine Terrace, The Parade and the area surrounding the old market place haven't added to the "coffers"?
DeleteIf you would like to post your evidence I'm sure I and others would like to see it.
Errr..Tone..it's not grimmer up Norf: apart from the horror of both Ramsgate and Margate featuring, there's also Hastings and Dover and Folkestone weren't even classed as seaside reports any more.
ReplyDeleteKent is failing. Add in a plethora of Kent towns In the new Crap Towns book and things are clearly very bad indeed.
All we need now are sky-high cancer levels, paedo care homes and contaminated water and it could be like the North. North Arkansas. Yee-hah bumpkins!
How though will Bayford and Hart and Latchford and Macgonigal improve things?
Pleasurama and Dreamland are still derelict and Manston has hardly...taken off.
"If you would like to post your evidence..."
ReplyDeleteWhat evidence do you want? You just look at the receipts of business rates in Margate. There's nothing I can post here that would convince you. I could post figures and tell you where I got them from but, you would just find another reason to cast aspersions. If you are really interested it's very simple. Just make an FoI request for the information. I know you won't do this because you are irrationally wedded to the notion that the Turner Centre is a great success and that Margate is being successfully regenerated because there are a few cafes and shops selling tat.
I agree with you 20:33 - the Turner figures are nonsense. And it was built twice over 15 years for c.£40M. But career progress for the bureaucrats requires claims of success.
DeleteThere has been minor bits of regeneration at the bottom of Margate High St but only really worth mentioning because of the disastrous state of the rest of Margate.
Dreamland of course continues to be a disaster and farce.
To listen to TDC though you'd think everything was superb.
Who should be sacked? Gale? Hart? Bayford? Macgonigal?
The only way you can dispute the Turner figures, 10:20, is if you have access to different ones. Perhaps you could share that information with us?
DeleteAs for sacking, the only reason you seem to have so much time for blogging is probably because some employer had too much of your inadequacies. Maybe that is why you want everyone else to share your fate.
So you spout stuff and then can't be bothered to back it up?
DeleteYou're the one making it sound like you already have all the evidence then fail when given the chance to share it!
Ho, hum guess we can take anything you say with a pinch of salt then.
Whatever you feel about the TC it's been built, you'd never have seen the money spent on anything else if it hadn't and no amount of stamping your foot will or would have changed anything.
Enjoy ;)
I don't have figures to back it up. I have belief and faith in Margate. So what? Well, enough faith to put my money where my mouth is. Yes, I'm a Londoner. Yes, I've made some money. No, I don't think that makes me better than anyone else. Yes, I have spent it in Margate. Yes, my middle class kids enjoyed the Turner. Yes, we ate at the seafront. Yes, we were moved by the town I remember. And yes, we are buying a family home in Margate.
ReplyDeleteI find it challenging that Margate's most prolific bloggers are so down on the town. Despite this, we are coming. You have a wonderful town. I hope it will welcome us.