Nothing in life remains as it was, and neither should it, many years have gone by since public sector workers got crap pay but decent pensions.
These days those in the public sector are creaming an average 40 per cent more than those in the private commercial sector.
The commercial world has seen jobs taken over by cheap easily exploited labour from the EU so those who used to work in agriculture, construction and manufacturing been thrown on the scrap heap, I don't recall anyone from the unions, including ones I've been a member complain Unite (T&G at the time) or RMT (Which I left when I realised Bob Crow was taking £15 a month, not to represent me but his own brand of lefty politics).
So those teachers who don't want to work and expect me to pay for their pension, I suggest we replace with those who are willing to work for a fair days pay.
As has been the case in most of the commercial sectors, I would suggest we get teachers who are willing to work from the EU, who in most cases would be better motivated, probably better educated and not so greedy and selfish, also better able to help the children whose first language in not English, who in many parts of the country from the majority.
Just think of that much loved character of the professional classes in recent times, the "Polish plumber" could now be complimented with his fellow countryman the "Polish professor".
PS I'd love that idiot from unison to tell me why I should have to subsidise him and everyone else in the public sector.
What teachers earning their pay?
ReplyDeleteWhat next, police officers going out on the streets?
These union leader are paid chicken feed compared to the bosses of the FT 100 companies and county council chief execs. However they could always jump ship and join the PFA union where boss Gordon Taylor's £1m wage must soon be up for grabs as he approaches retirement.
ReplyDeleteThis has been a growing problem for decades Tony.
ReplyDeleteIn the 60s I wasw in the Army. Trade structure was X trades technician(Electronics, aircraft), A trades skilled (vehicle mechanics, electricians etc) and B Trades semi-skilled (Clerks, storemen, police)
As the cold war warriors worried about reds under beds and the dangers of union power and so forth, ideas seeped into the military.
In 69 Scout helicopters were grounded for a while over a reduction gear problem. I grabbed the available time to do a parachute course. But other techs found themselves involved in a multiskilling/ seconday trade research project.
In BAOR our guys found themselves being required to install a telephone system in an Intelligence HQ. The brass figuring if they can fix helicopters they can do telephones.
The lads did not fail and they completed a telephone system in the block of offices. They had been briefed that they must not know the Intelligence functions carried on in that building.
Well a couple of days after finishing the project the Intelligence Colonel phoned to complain and two corporals were sent to sort out what ever his problem was. It transpired that there was no internal directory informing the Intelligence Officers the extension numbers for each desk.
So corporal A asked to borrow a pen and paper. Corporal B picked up the phone and dialled "Ext 1". Then asked to whom hw was speaking.
"Major Sans-Brain Sopviet Order of Battle"
Corporal A wrote this down. Then Ext 2 was dialed and so forth. Until a complete internal directory was derived for the Intelligence Colonel.
At the end of this the Colonel announced "But I could have done that"
And the corporals replied "Yes indeed you could have but it appears you did not think of it ?"
The corporals inquired if they should report to be shot at dawn because they had just acquired all the intelligence functions of the office block.
A realization settled on the corporal techs. The morons in Intelligence and Command had developed a paranoid fear of union power, had an unmeritted confidence in their own intellects and thought that technicians were so versatile that if the unions played up the Army techs could run railways, communications and nuclear power plant.
Technical stuff apparently being so simple.
But what of public sector admin ? Well research shew that corporal technicians could really do any civil service admin job up to Senior Executive Officer level with but a few days familiarization training.
After all it was only in the public sector that military semi skilled trades (Admin and police) are treated as if they are professionals.
Look at the postwar structure of civil service. All clerks but with layers of titles. Clerical Assistant (CSE) Clerical Officer (O Levels) Executive Officer (A levels) .. artificial jobs for artificially educated people.
New Labour just kept building on the folly foundations of previous decades. Artificial jobs.
Teachers have told us for decades that theirs is the most important job. They prepare children to become useful citizens.
When is that going to start working for us then ?
Do we believe that teachers do a useful job though ? Yes as child minders keeping kids out of the house five days per week. Pay em national minimum wage.
So there in the 60s the Intelligence analysts thought the unions might have us by the bollix by controlling the infrastructure ... water, power, communications etc
But as it turned out the danger was in public sector people deluding themselves they are other than B class semi skilled and occupying artificially created jobs.
I am a teacher approaching retirement age. I am not striking on Thursday. The government has said that my accrued rights will be protected. However, the change from RPI to CPI indexing will lower significantly the pension I will receive. Former colleagues who have already retired are also affected by this change. How are we to make financial provisions for the shortfall in our anticipated pensions? A reasonable government would have retained the RPI for all those teachers who are aged 50 years or above, and, failing that, for retired teachers.
ReplyDeleteSecond, the government seems to be planning to withdraw the Teachers' Pension Scheme from independent schools. Many of these are highly successful establishments whose pupils achieve high standards academically. Removing them from the pension scheme will make the recruitment and retention of good, well-qualified teachers difficult. Is this really the government's intention?
Third, for well-qualified teachers like myself there has always been a trade-off between poor pay and a good pension. I had assumed that the trade-off was sacrosanct. If high-quality teachers are to be recruited in future, any decrease in pension will have to be offset by an increase in salary.
Finally, future university students beware! It would be naive to assume that the generous student loans introduced by the government were anything more than a way of ensuring the legislation would be passed. If the teachers' pension scheme can be changed for existing pensioners, so too can the terms of those student loans. To the coalition nothing is sacrosanct.
Ernest
6 59 The only concern I have about your pension is that I and millions like me are subsidising public sector pensions.
ReplyDeleteWhen I no longer have to pay, it will cease to be my concern, in the meantime people like you have probably sat by said nothing while workers in industry have been replaced by exploited migrant labour.
I'm merely suggesting that many teachers could easily be replaced by well educated east europeans, who would probably be happy to accept less money as is the case elsewhere in the economy.
While I continue to pay for public sector pension, I shall continue to complain, whats in it for me, maybe recipients of generous pensions could nip round and do my garden while I nip out and build railways.
exploited migrant labour
ReplyDeleteTony, i think you are a bit deluded about this. We have a minimum wage scheme so people will be earning that as a minimum.
Just because so of the europeans are not as lazy as some UK people they are willing to get off there arse and work for a living without moaning about pay or conditions.
If you say pay has been reduced then maybe thats because you were being paid to much for doing to little.
Happens in every industry and not just be eastern Europeans eith, just some are more hungrier for the work than others.
Good on the poeple striking, im not to intrsted in there pensions ( even as a tax payer) but i believe standing up for something that you believe in so strongly is a great thing. Something the French are very good at !
Tony. I'm with you. I work in the private sector and saw my pension robbed by Gordon Brown. It's a bloody luxury nowadays to have a final salary pension - a luxury only enjoyed by the public sector and paid for by you and me.
ReplyDeleteWhen standards of education start to rise above the Third World levels now experienced then I might have a bit more sympathy. At the moment teachers are just stealing public money in the form of their salaries. Let them strike and see who cares.
schools are nothing more than dumbing down facilities nowadays hopefully parents will wakeup to this and take their children out on mass. home education is far superior to anything the schools can provide and the children are better off. no bullying, no indoctrination and no pensions to worry about paying.
ReplyDelete3 29 clearly your an idiot, I would assume a labour supporter happy to keep the company of cretins crook liars and parasites happy to bleed working people with claims of having a more righteous career, utter bollix.
ReplyDeleteAlso you contridict yourself and show your ignorance of the work place outside the cosy ironclad security of the public sector.
Your happy to see pay reduced, but for the above reasons don't see it applying to work shy, selfish teachers who are striking before the government has imposed normal working practices.
Of course many in the Public sector are badly treated, however this is not the case with the teaching profession generous pay long holidays and short days.
Abolishment of state edumacation Tony... problem solved!
ReplyDeleteTaking back our lives and our country from the psychopathic ruling class is absolutely essential, or else it's curtains for all of us.
And no, I'm not kidding (nor deluded).
...however this is not the case with the teaching profession generous pay long holidays and short days.
ReplyDeleteNow that is quite the generalisation Tony!
If you mean generous pay at £25k before tax etc, long holidays as in spending most of it preparing lesson plans, course structures and marking and short days as in get to work at 8am teach till 3pm and then do more work at school till 5pm then head home eat and continue work for a few more hours... is that what you mean?
If they did not want to disrupt the pupils why didn't they go on strike in their holidays, if they used half their holiday allowance they would still have 6 weeks for thew rerst of the year...oh my heart bleeds and i can hear the violins playing.
ReplyDeleteNo one seriously believes the rubbish that its all about the children more like the pay packet?
ReplyDeleteAnd dont forget the teaching 'profession' also works very closely with children services who are all on very good wages especially with a nice £2000 sweetener.
And why does Kent employ rather a lot of foreign solicitors who also work in childrens services obviously all in the 'best interests of the children' or is it?
One for Chris or Jenny to ask perhaps ?
wonder how many of those who are going on strike today voted the destroyers into office in the first place
ReplyDeleteLib-con, (labor-a-tory) laboratory of lies
Any of you that think teachers have an easy life fancy spending a working day with a teacher and the 100+ kids they see in any one school day? You know if it is so easy why don't you offer your services to a local secondary school like Hartsdown, King Ethelberts, St Georges or Marlowe? I'm sure as professionals in industry you have an awful lot to offer a class of 30 kids.
ReplyDeleteOr are you all just a bunch of misguided gutless cowards who are all talk and no trousers?
Suppose it really depends on who is really behind running the schools, some would do well to listen to this interview especially those in positions of power over childrens life's, parents would do well to keep their children close in some counties including this one.
ReplyDeleteWhistle blowers unite and save the children from corporate destruction
a far more important cause than teachers wages how many ex teachers go on to become councillors ?
Paedophiles in Power-Part Three
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_9Nl00NPas&feature=player_embedded
I hope anon 10:25pm has a large stock of tinfoil as continually constructing his hats everytime he buys into another conspiracy must mean he has to buy in bulk.
ReplyDeleteTony, do you honestly believe that causing a brain drain of educators in Poland is a good idea? Will you be happy to also have Police from Poland coming here as well? How about their Military? These are all Public Sector employees after all... or is just Teachers that you hate?
To me I find your post quite bizarre given previous topics you've raised in the past about migrants from other nations coming to the UK to work.... this post and others don't seem to gel and you seem to have some doublethink / cognitive dissonance going on, is it giving you a headache?
Regarding the constant talk about tax payers paying for public sector pensions I'd like to point out that as a public sector employee I too pay tax, tax at normal levels, but I also pay contributions towards a pension.
The issue here is that the private sector, after their CEO's/CFO's axed their pension schemes to line the pockets of the shareholders and hedge fund companies, is angry and they are taking it out on the Public Sector who historically have taken lower wages which has been balanced by a public backed pension.
Oh and while you're happily condemning Public Sector pensions and I'm raising the Police and Military from Poland would you be posting topics similar to this about the Police and Military?
ReplyDeleteWould you be brave enough to come out and say that anyone in uniformed Public Service should be made to work longer before retirement, be made to contribute more to their pension and also face a change from finale salary to average salary pension scheme?
Or is it just teachers you don't like?
Sounds like 1 o’clock Rob might need spec savers to help him open his eyes up to the truth regarding the safety of children.
ReplyDeleteIt is very worrying to think that children are being ‘taught’ by teachers with such closed minds “tin foil hat conspiracy“ sounds more like ‘common purpose’ spiel to keep these atrocities hidden. After all without the children they don’t have a job.
Rob there is I suppose an ironic element to my suggestion of employing cheap migrant labour, the point was and still is teachers have a good deal, but also teachers are part of the class who have done ok out of taxpayer whilst not giving a flying toss for their fellow citizen who have been treated badly and replaced by migrants to me it would be a natural progression.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow I've just got home from work so don't panic I'm still working hard to top up your pension
1 o'clock Rob is a prime example of why one should not be sending one's kids to the government indoctrination camps; he's either clueless or else he is very, very sinister.
ReplyDeleteSorry Rob, the kids may believe every untruth you utter, but your 'authority' does not cut any ice with me.
What's your hourly rate of pay Tony? Just curious as you keep telling us how bad things are.
ReplyDelete7 57 would you also like my card details, suggest if you are that curious you give your own details first
ReplyDeletePut it this way I take home less than I did 7 years ago,
The free Market has effected pay in a way that public sector bods are clueless about, maybe union leaders ought to stop bitching and take the hit the rest of us have and perhaps save their jobs
£5.93 per hour thanks to labour & the minimum wage, otherwise it would probably still be £4 per hour. I work nights clearing up old people's poo in a care home.
ReplyDeleteOK, your turn.
Lesson for the teachers:
ReplyDeleteThe amount of money required in a pension scheme to provide a pension of £20,000 escalating at 5%per year for a 65 year old man with a dependant is £700,000.
Years ago the annuity rates where a lot better and thus a lot less was required as a lump sum. Anyone starting a private pension more than 15 years ago was promised a good pension for a reasonable outlay. But just like the government has to break promises on pensions many people with private pensions have seen the promises made by insurance companies and banks broken too.
Teachers are being asked to pay and extra 3.4% (before tax) towards their pensions. Anybody with a private pension who would like to receive the same pension as a teacher would need to contribute about £8,000 per year. The increase of 3.4% is still a very good deal so teachers get real.
Nobody man enough to come and spend a day working with the kids then I see, just more tinfoil hat conspiracy bollocks and statements from old farts that still think it's the 1960's.... tsk, tsk.
ReplyDeleteRegarding my pension Tony, I contributed just over £130 to it this month, then I paid about £250 in Tax and a further £120 in NI dragging my luxury wage packet of about £2000 a month gross down to an awe inspiring £1500. Given that at this time of year I do about 50'ish hours a week lets do the maths, for arguements sake we'll call the month 4 weeks, so £1500 divided by 4 divided by 50 gives me a take home hourly rate of £7.50 an hour.
But that won't make any difference, I should be honoured to earn so much money, I mean there are people out there that earn a pittance, people like Anon 5:07 on his £5.93 an hour, been there done that and did it when the rate was closer to £4 an hour, then all the jobs I worked whilst studying and trying to raise a family which paid similar low wages. I suppose in hindsight rather than dedicating my life to serving the public I should have gotten myself a nice little house on Millmead and just got the missus to pump out sprogs and raped the social security system to bits.
ooh... now how about a blog post on spongers Tony? the ones that cost the country hundreds of millions a year... oh and I look forward to your post answering the numerous questions I have posed for you.
Peter, it is still around 3 times the minimum wage.
ReplyDeleteDo you pay into a pension Tony? or are you going to rely on a state pension?
ReplyDeleteI ask because one thing us public sector workers can't do is take cash in hand, or gifts in kind, so we all pay all our taxes, which ultimately pay the pension you will draw.
Could this also explain the disparity in wages? I wonder?
Also it's not exactly like for like and I am sure you have looked at the tables which show educational attainment and wages and that is where public/private can not be compared because most in the public sector have a higher education standard than those in the private, it is unfair to compare trained nurses, with say your average supermarket worker which ultimately your statistics do.
most public sector have been forced to outsource their lower jobs such as porters, cleaners etc, which was to the detriment to those workers as 10 years ago a living wage with a good pension, to minimum wage, and we in the public sector weep at that because they where a vital part of the system, and in return we got MRSA, thank you private industry.
don't turn on your fellow worker, turn on government and private employers who are the real villans, old Cameron is not a fool and he is cunningly using the same Thatcher ploy (who he has admitted to admire) she used in the miners strike which was tell everyone what greedy so and so they where, and their argument got lost and they where right she closed the mines, even though she said that wasn't her plan... history tells the tail.
so if you are worried about pensions wait till you have to pay directly for your health care in a proper private sector where I could earn as much as my American Counterparts, which in my job is over £100,000 a year, help yourself. welcome to a free market ecomony.
I earn 32,015 a year after 20 years and considerable training, I am also a manager, in charge of a department of 9 made up of doctors, nurses and one part time admin.
think before you throw us off the cliff.
Just remember, Tony is a Liberal Democrat,and if he had won in the recent elections would have been a Thanet District Councillor - with some responsibility for a large bunch of public sector workers. I wonder how that relationship would've worked.
ReplyDeleteSounds like Rob doesn't like his 'authority' challenged, lol.
ReplyDeleteKids will do better schooled at home, FACT!
Presumably Tony wouldn't have been so shy about declaring his earnings if he'd become a councillor.
ReplyDelete@ 8.00am.
ReplyDeleteAuthority challenged? I don't care, just make sure you are challenging me with all the facts at your disposal... armed with sheets of tinfoil wrapped around your head won't work.
... watch out is that an alien spacecraft in the back garden?
The (government) just a one party puppet show, must have been bitterly disappointed with the lack of turnout and support for this strike. How are they to cause a civil war without the people giving a dam about each other? Which means they will have to work that much harder to make this happen, how else can they come in and create 'order out of chaos'
ReplyDeleteOf course, all children should be home educated, because we all know its the children they are really after. It's pretty clear they already have the dumbed down adult populace under control, who still unfortunately dont understand that the one party puppet show can only ever do as they are told, by the secret societies, who are really running the country through trickery & deception.
@ 5:12pm... http://tinyurl.com/68rxc2q
ReplyDeleteThe lunatics have taken over the asylum, no point reading this drivel anymore.
By lunatics Rob, do you mean the Common Purpose graduates who are trying to turn this free land into a soviet-style gulag?
ReplyDeleteYes you could have a point. Don't worry, they tend to stand out like a sore thumb, they'll not pose too much of a problem, once a critical mass has cottoned on... :)
I see The Margate Kitten Killer is in this week's Gazette again, this time for claiming expenses he wasn't entitled to & not paying them back as he "can't afford to".
ReplyDelete1 o'clock Rob I think it is you who has silver foil hats. I cannot understand how you can think the current system is sustainable.
ReplyDeleteOnce the level of literacy and numeracy in this country has returned to anywhere near the level attained when I was young then I will start to take teachers seriously. Until then I'm afraid they are just highly paid child minders.
ReplyDeleteThanks for a lively debate, I remain unrepentant, unimpressed by teachers wittering about working with children, well I've worked for children, feed and clothed them, and nobodys offering me a fat pension.
ReplyDeleteMuch amused by one o clock rob and other anon people who demand details of my circumstance, here's the deal provided me with a fat unearned pension and I will spill the beans.
Sorry for lack of imput this weekend, I was working all weekend not the hour at home, in the armchair shuffling papers and watchin a bit of corrie
Nice cop-out Tony, been a bit busy, there there, have a rest sonny, not long till my tax payes for your pension.... assuming that you aren't paying into one or that the company you work for didn't sell it's workers down the river to pay larger dividends to it's shareholders.
ReplyDeleteAnyway was only holding on to see how you thought about having Polish uniformed services as a replacement for the British kind (like you're happy for Brit teachers to be replaced by Polish ones), or whether you'd talk about making the uniformed services work till 68, pay more to their pension and have them move from an "end salary to average salary" schemes?
But... you must be getting old and ready for the scrap heap as your alzheimers has you fixed squarely on teachers... you haven't seemed to realised that teachers are but a small part of the public services claiming "gold plated unearnt pensions"... tsk, tsk, you really are becoming a relic of a bygone age, no wonder you failed in your bid for councillor, adeiu! (French for farewell, just in case your education isn't up to it).
Tony earns a lot more than us teachers so he isn't worried!
ReplyDeleteRob I made the suggestion Of using migrants since they would view teacher pay as is or even proposed a flipping good deal.
ReplyDeleteHad you not been the typical loony, self obsessed mildly left wing nut you'd have realised I was selecting solution to deal with you industry.
The suggestion of bringing other east europeans into public sector jobs is not out of line with whats happened further down the food chain. I'd welcome east europeans bringing the same downward wage pressure so I don't continue to subsidise people like you.
Rob your part of that middle ground of professionals who've underachieved, if we are to beleive the bullsh*t, you could earn far more in the private sector My Ar*e.
Frankly it's immoral that those on low incomes are paying for your easy life.
Easy lifestyle?, you deluded halfwit. £16,000 take home wage which goes on the house, me, the missus and two kids. I've worked since I left school at 16. Worked all through my education and paid my dues... and you say I have an easy lifestyle. You should take your head out of your arse mate and head on over to a local secondary school and give it a crack for 5 days. But of course that would mean actually having to do something which is a lot harder than sitting behind your pc spounting off like you actually have a clue!
ReplyDeleteThe sooner dinosaurs like you are extinct the better, once your passed your sell by date and thrown on the scraphead it'll be me and my fellows who'll be running this country... and you old timers won't know whats hit you!
Tony, I was 32.015 a year, you I understand don't want to state your wage that is fair enough, but have you actually [aid into a private pension? I think this is the crux, I have once it was legal for me to do so, on top of my public pension at he time I had no children, had to stop it once I did as my child care and petrol to work left me approx £300 a month after tax, and most of that I probally spent on dinners as I was knackered, so couldn't get it together enough to prepare a lunch for the next day...so why did I do it?? god knows when people like you think we are leeches, I did it because I was committed to helping people, and I didn't actually think to become a drain on the tax payer by drawing benefits, in which even you would agree I would have been better off, I didn't even claim working tax benefit because I actually worked I got nothing except filling out a form.
ReplyDeleteI pay NI and tax, but can only clain basic state pension, because us wastes of time aren't allowed SERPS, which...oh...hang on is a state funded higher pension...which you pay a premium on..um... just like me with my payments into my pension...
interesting you have ignored my posts, I would like robust answers.
Mentally ill Rob said:
ReplyDelete"once your passed your sell by date and thrown on the scraphead it'll be me and my fellows who'll be running this country..."
Ahahaha.. and what pleasant fellows you are!
The Rothschilds and the European 'black' nobility run this country, make no mistake about that, and unless deluded fools like yourself, remove your head from your backside and face up to that fact, they will run it into the ground and most of us with it.
It is a scary thought that our future generations are being led down the path of extinction by such clueless, 'useful idiot', pied pipers as you, Rob.
Well said time to wake up people snooze time is over.
ReplyDeleteGod Save The Children because most of the adults have their heads buried too deeply in the sand .
Well said 6:55. Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach
ReplyDelete30,015 again, I have just had a brain wave, and yes bring on the extra payments to my pension, I have been quoted 3.8 percent a year on top of my 6% I already pay today, bring it on, because my pension is tax deductable so I will pay something like 9 1/2pence the pound rather than say 22p in paye, sounds like a bargin to me.
ReplyDeleteOh and private pensions are tax deductable too, before you moan!