Simon Moores tells us this week (in yourthanet newspaper) that money spent on the Turner Contemporary does not come from us but rather from Kent County Council, South East England Development Agency, and the blooming Arts Council.
Well just where does he think the tax money comes from to pay for these organisations, and also the fat cats who draw big salaries and expenses, that's right us, local taxpayers.
He tells us that money is being given to us and ignores the fact that the Rendezvous site originally owned by Thanet council, was given away by our bungling council of which he is now a member, to Kent Council.
Now we are getting a gallery on a postage stamp sized piece of the site, but on the larger part of the site Kent council has done a deal with a property developer, and when I asked Thanets leading councilor and member of Thanet's cafe society, a few months ago whether we would see any of the profits, I seem to remember his answer was something like no chance.
Perhaps someone could explain why Thanet will not benefit from what was once our property, profits from which will quite likely subsidise those clowns in Maidstone.
Money spent by Kent council is our money, its a pity that local Tories have never had much influence with their richer central and west Kent colleagues, and got our fair share of what is our money.
A prime example of the attitude of Maidstone centric Tories can be seen with local roads, almost weekly Paul Carter and his cronies in Maidstone, witter on about the M20 but have you ever heard any mention about road links toThanet, no of course not.
Thanet Conservatives appear to adopt a servile attitude when representing Thanet interest with their county colleague.
In summary for Simon Moores and his colleagues, its quite simple, money from Kent council and other agencies comes from our taxes, so it might be a good idea if, those who were elected to serve Thanet, got more proactive on our behalf.
Well just where does he think the tax money comes from to pay for these organisations, and also the fat cats who draw big salaries and expenses, that's right us, local taxpayers.
He tells us that money is being given to us and ignores the fact that the Rendezvous site originally owned by Thanet council, was given away by our bungling council of which he is now a member, to Kent Council.
Now we are getting a gallery on a postage stamp sized piece of the site, but on the larger part of the site Kent council has done a deal with a property developer, and when I asked Thanets leading councilor and member of Thanet's cafe society, a few months ago whether we would see any of the profits, I seem to remember his answer was something like no chance.
Perhaps someone could explain why Thanet will not benefit from what was once our property, profits from which will quite likely subsidise those clowns in Maidstone.
Money spent by Kent council is our money, its a pity that local Tories have never had much influence with their richer central and west Kent colleagues, and got our fair share of what is our money.
A prime example of the attitude of Maidstone centric Tories can be seen with local roads, almost weekly Paul Carter and his cronies in Maidstone, witter on about the M20 but have you ever heard any mention about road links toThanet, no of course not.
Thanet Conservatives appear to adopt a servile attitude when representing Thanet interest with their county colleague.
In summary for Simon Moores and his colleagues, its quite simple, money from Kent council and other agencies comes from our taxes, so it might be a good idea if, those who were elected to serve Thanet, got more proactive on our behalf.
Tony,
ReplyDeleteI ahve been called many things, but servile just dont cut the mustard. In case you had not noticed there are major roadworks just now with the east kent access road, and the new road into westwood.
TDC did contribute the land at the Rendezvous site (valued at just inder 1 million at the time). It is being used to get a developer working in the area including hotel and similar developments, which will help Margate and employability. The ongoing revenue costs of Turner have to be met as well.
You really should not let your natural cynicism infect every judgement old chap!
cynic ? Surely not Chris will most likely give a fuller reply later at the moment im traveling to work and have a railway to build
ReplyDeleteTony
ReplyDeleteIt's all about regenerating Margate! In your world view, we reject the Turner, lose the money, which goes to the next seaside town (some of it representing a fraction of the taxes that go from Thanet to KCC) and the other desparate seaside town gets the gallery and we get nothing!
Is this the alternative view of the future you would prefer?
To be honest, I would prefer to see the Turner money in Margate helping to regenerate the town than somewhere else!
One has to question the legal department of TDC which yet again has executed a legal document without any terms or conditions attached, perhaps ones that would have controlled the use to which the land could be used, and/or included a claw back clause should it be sold on or used for other purposes.
ReplyDeleteIf such a transaction as the 'Turner Centre' land transfer had happened in the commercial world, heads would have rolled, but TDC just hide who screwed up and and employ more people from outside Thanet, as they have a vested interest in denuding Thanet of it's assets and keeping it as a economic/social backwater.
Question? Why did it take so long to get approval for the access roads into Thanet, approval delayed for years by both Canterbury City Council & Dover District Council, both of which had commercial interests/inward investment options which where threatened by the opening up of a route to Ramsgate docks and the cheap labour pool in Margate.
If you want to complain about TDC I think you would be better off aiming you barbs at the employed 'professionals' who's performance falls well below commercial standards, although I agree the 'elected officers' should be exercising firmer control of our employee's
Has anybody ever seen figures on how many employee's of TDC actually live in Thanet?
I am not suggesting we do not have the turner centre just pointing out its our money
ReplyDeleteWell, a tiny fraction might be perceived as "our money" through the taxation system but the balance, by orders of magnitude, represents arts council, SEEDA and KCC money. In simplistic terms, it's rather like saying, you give me 50p and I will spend £1,000 to regenerate the area in which you live!
ReplyDeleteTony,
ReplyDeleteJust ask Keith Ferrin if he thinks I am 'servile'. I think not!
I would still like to know why the share of Council Tax going to TDC Chief Executive has risen from £65,000 2 years ago to £1,267,000
ReplyDeletethis year.
The Turner Centre is a great idea and I can't wait for it to be built. The other stuff about a Maidstone-centric KCC is so true though. That's why undermining the TC really would be looking a gift horse in the mouth.
It might be better to let another seaside town have the Turner Centre.
ReplyDeleteIt is not a realistic central pillar of a regeneration strategy.
The truth must be that even if Thanet were persuaded that the TC was a gift, from the taxpayers of Britain, with it will come the need to subsidise it in perpetuity.
If you look at grant aided industry and WDA etc. Companies like Fords of Bridgend and Big Batteries at Cwmbran asked for more grant aid to stay.
At least there was an interval of some years between the set up grants and putting the arm on for further grants to stay put helping the area's "Employability".
Perhaps if TDC could make the TC staff is the word stipendiary ? You know they are paid whatever the good folks feel able to put in a weekly collection.
Make them self employed working at a loss and transfer their income costs to Tax Credit ?
The grant to East Kent Maritime Trust is ran at about 120,000 per year. How much will the TC cost ?
Might be interesting to see if any other seaside resort is desperate enough to want the TC.
In answer to Sue, her question was, I believe asked by Michael Child and given I reply, I recall on Thanet Life. The figures represented, if I remember correctly a reorganisation of the Chief Executive's office rather than anything sinister. i.e. it expanded to include other functions so in principal, the same pot of money was simply moved around and accounted for differently.
ReplyDeleteIn regard to the TC, we aren't talking of a large business like Ford but somethinq quite unique which a number of different bodies have a funding commitment to. So I'll repeat the offer. I give you 50p and you give me £10,000. In the present economic climate are you prepared to refuse it? I suspect that given the details, most people in Thanet would probably take the risk and hope that the TC delivers a level of regeneration that Margate badly needs.
I dont know who drmoores is but I think his 50p to £1,000 or £10,000 needs a bit of explaining. It might be clear to him but it is as clear as mud to me. Thanet has one tenth of the population of Kent so how is Tony getting £1000 for his 50p from the rest of us in Kent?
ReplyDeleteChris we have major road works here in Ramsgate, the purpose of which appears only to remove our main sands car park, as the access road is unable to support the vehicles that the roadworks are for. Is this some peculiar scheme to damage tourism in Ramsgate for the benefit of Margate? There must be some explanation for this ridiculous roadworks but no one will tell me what.
ReplyDeleteSimon I find myself in the peculiar position coming to Tony’s blog to comment on a posting that you made earlier in the week. Turner is ill conceived, they have flogged the car park to a developer, it’s like Tesco selling their car park to build an hotel on. It’s got no architectural sympathy with it’s surroundings either the shape of the coastline or the surrounding buildings, the actual gallery space is far to small, with the amount of money available it should be possible to build a gallery big enough to be a national attraction, as it is I just serves to detract from Margate’s very real problems. For instance Margate is now to lose its only bookshop but that will be ok as there will be a state subsidised bookshop in turner K9.
As for servility chaps if the money can only be used for an art gallery in Margate why not put your efforts into making it a worthwhile gallery big enough to house major expeditions.
I would also say to you all, have you looked at Margate recently and compared it with the other Kent seaside towns, Dover for instance has just received a large arts and heritage regeneration grant.
Do us a favour too, stop the creeping yellow lines in the town centre back streets and the building on car parks.
I’m sorry chaps but I am really very annoyed, I am trying to trade in averse conditions and pointed out to you all the pointlessness of removing our main tourist car park, I haven’t had a single coherent reply from anyone and its gone now replaced by a white elephant.
Here, here Michael!
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of funding Turner what will happen if no additional fund can be obtaine after say,3 years,what happens then.
ReplyDeleteIf an important asset like Surestart(Dane Valley)cannot get funding for their Toy Library and could be lost to the children of that area then what happens to an unwanted building like Turner?
It will be sold off for the benefit of the few and sod the rest.
Miss Pomeroy earns more in a year than i do in 6 years and i have to actually do something for mine,i do not get to attend opening nights and trips to nice places,i have to stay in Thanet because i cannot afford to move.
My point is that money for the Turner Contemporary is Taxpayers money plain and simple, and whilst Thanet has more than its fair share of bludgers, their are large numbers who go out to work to pay Taxes.
ReplyDeleteHistorically the Tories have dominated both Kent county council and Thanet council, so if anyone is to blame for the poor road links it is your local conservative councilors and no one else, and it certainly looks to me as though spending around Maidstone takes priority.
If you don't believe me visit West Malling or what has been renamed Kings Hill, you will find a recently built dual carriage way (A228)with very light traffic built I guess, to accommodate KCC jobsworths with a pleasant drive in to work.
If Local Tories have actually done anything to represent us Thanetonians why is it that the millions of pounds of Kent taxpayers money that goes on administration is spent mainly in Maidstone, rather than spread across the county.
If Thanet Tories haven't been servile, I cannot see where they've succeeded. In what century will Ramsgate finally get hooked up to rest of the country with a dual carriage way.
The Turner Contemporary should have been open by now, had it not been for bad management, exemplified by the decision to chose the one project not based on the original site but out to sea.
Finally if Simon Moores is suggesting I am against the Turner project, then he is wrong and ought to know it. What I'm against is the impression that KCC in particular, SEEDA and the arts council are doing us a favour, all I say is its about bloody time we got our share of our Taxes spent locally.
Tony,
ReplyDeleteyears ago I attended a meeting of SEERA and witnessed a gentleman from hampshire, who gave a TOP rant on immigration, I think your last comment has just taken the prize for RANT of the century. I understand your frustration, but please do not blame your local council for something beyoynd our control. We speak up, sometimes we are not on the winning side, its called democracy
Ken how is my last comment a rant
ReplyDeleteFact the turner gallery would have been built had it not been for bright sparks choosing the only scheme which involved building at sea rather than normally dry land, an air balloon would have been as sensible.
Fact we do not have decent road links into Thanet although Kent council can replace an adequate road with an even more adequate road as in the case of the A228 which just happens to lead to KCC offices at Kings Hill.
The truth might sound like a rant to those who aren't comfortable with reality
Tony, I'm confused by what you mean by adequate roads into Thanet? We have dual carriageway all the way from the M2 into Birchington and it wasn't so long ago that the A229 was once an "unofficial" test track for the motorcycle magazines and possibly holds the world land speed record! Observing some of the cars overtaking me today, its still one of the fastest stretched of road I know outside Germany!
ReplyDeleteI would agree with you. More money spent in Thanet please but when you look at the deprivation index in Kent, you'll see that we are in a queue for funds with everyone else. Money is invariably applied where there's a return on investment in terms of jobs and infrastructure so I can understand why some parts of Kent appear to receive more than others.
With close to a year of being into the job of councillor, It's the bigger picture impression of Thanet's challenges, as opposed to a number of snapshots, which influences my own thinking.
Ministers get "Red Boxes", we get huge Manilla envelopes stuffed with the courier delivered, Monday evening "Councillor Mail". Planning, Scrutiny, Policy, Governance & Audit, Joint Transportation, you name it. We try and make sense of it all and with that information, try and work in the best interests of the people that put us here. What sometimes appears transparently clear to you may in fact be one small piece of a much larger puzzle.
We all want the same thing for Thanet but I for one have discovered that we have so many different challenges and priorities it's on a par with solving 'Rubik's Cube'.
Turner is non negotiable. If it's to be built that's what we are going to get and now we have to learn to live with it and indeed hope that it proves succesful!
What TDC and its councillors are in , is denial. They have set the regeneration pathway on the TC rather than Dreamland and refuse to accept that the funding for building the monstrosity is tax-payers money and that the council tax payers of Thanet will have to subsidise it when it fails to be an economic proposition. The forecast for visitors is ridiculously optimistic and have no doubt about it, there is no way that TC Mark 2 will attract 3,000 visitors to Margate, week in week out. Dr Moores, before he became a Conservative Councillor said as much. What has happened in the past 2 years to change his mind other than becoming a member of the ruling faction at TDC?
ReplyDeleteSimon
ReplyDeleteIn answer to you. Yes I would forego the large sum of money. Because it is buying a commitment for the area. It is not buying an asset.
Fords is a big concern. But it is valid example.
As far away as Ebbw Vale the college got into bespoke training to support the specific needs of industry grant aided to wales (including Fords)
Coupled with that they gained dispensation to lower academic standards but still validate qualifications at the higher level.
Hence HNCs awarded with only ONC maths standards at finals. IE They could not use maths as a learning tool.
Reason. The Welsh lads will work in grant aided industry and never need to design. Screwdriver economy.
After years of massive amounts of public funds into regeneration it became the least skilled area of UK. Even the Japanese (Panasonic Matshushita) warned them that with their abysmal educational standards they could expect inward investment to "Dry to a trickle".
Purported flagships of regeneration sinking and taking everyone down with them.
The TC will not attract visitors in viable numbers. It will not act as any pillar for regeneration. It will become a chronic subsidy burden for the ratepayer.
And it will continue as the debacle adding to the amusement the rest of the country enjoy when matters Thanet are mentioned.
I was up north the other day. Met a lady originally from Gravesend.
"Margate", she laughed, "I used to visit there. Well up to when they closed it down. Are they still burning it down for themselves bit by bit ?"
I mentioned the DV8 fire. She peeled laughing.
"Thanet" she said "Joke".
"Turner Centre though" I countered
She laughed so much she nigh wet herself. "They never actually believe that will pick the area up do they ?"
Apparently so. A laughing stock
As I said in "YourThanet", you can argue about the TC until the cows come home but like it or not, it's a done deal and Margate will receive the generous funding to build the project. Many people have reservations about its potential for success and others expect it to be a catalyst for change. However, everyone is entitled to an opinion on the subject and none of us will actually know what the result will be until it is built.
ReplyDeleteAs for Dreamland, it's an entirely different matter which as we all know, involves privately owned land and I doubt there is anyone in Thanet who would not like to see the considerable efforts made by the council to move the matter forward, succeed.
At this point, I'm not going to add any more to the thread, as I'm likely to be accused of resurrecting a 'Thanet Life' discussion on Tony's excellent weblog!
Chris, Simon, Ken, do none of you have any thoughts on the removal of Ramsgate’s main sands car park? Do none of you think that a much bigger gallery of a cheaper and simpler design would be better? This aint about political point scoring it’s about the death of our towns, we have serious problems and if you, our communities leaders won’t listen to sensible and positive suggestions because they don’t come from within your political party, what hope for the future of Margate and Ramsgate. Here in Ramsgate we are just starting to recover from the inevitable results of losing all of our leisure facilities, but this recovery is being thwarted by the removal of our car parking and when this is done to the benefit of nothing and no one we want to know why. If pressure is being put on the council to thwart Ramsgate’s regeneration we ought to be told if it’s just a ghastly mistake we ought to be told.
ReplyDeleteWell said Drmoores..
ReplyDeleteUp North??
ReplyDeleteBwahahahhhahahha!
One only has to look at the current temporary space at the old M+S building today, a weekend day at midday, no visitors, only the staff. This is a complete waste of money. And what is left of Margate's local traders have been given another blow in the form of a greedy council's increasing parking charges. This town needs vareity TO survive, decent shops etc. The way things are going, TDC will be the only one left in central Margate, apart from the solicitors that service the Law Courts etc. Remember, last person out switch the lights out.
ReplyDeleteMargate is also the laughing stock on national radio stations,Clearly the message is spreading how badly our town has been managed.
ReplyDeleteMichael,
ReplyDeleteThere appears to be a systematic policy to reduce the amount of parking in Ramsgate Town centre.
In 2005, we had the application by TDC (to itself) for planning permission to build on the car parks in Albion Place, Cottage Road (used for Albion House?) and the land used unofficially for parking in Chatham Street. See planning applications nos: F/TH/05/1021, F/TH/05/0934 and OL/TH/05/0814.
After a lot of protest by people in the area around Albion Place, this particular application was withdrawn (although it still remains on the planning application web site as 'current').
The other two plots of land were sold. The houses on the plot in Cottage Road are partially built.
We have just had a letter through the door today from councillor David Green, warning us that the Albion Place car park is on TDC's list of land they would like to sell.
The previous planning application for Albion Place car park was for 18 appartments and a cottage, with no provision for parking at all.
Whilst none of these car parks - or the one near the main sands - were *that* big, the long term effect is a systematic reduction in the amount of parking available.
People battle to find parking places within the town centres, whilst at the same time we have large amounts of parking available in Westwood Cross for no charge.
How businesses in Ramsgate are expected to compete in the face of this imbalance, I really don't know.
As part of the local plan, there is a drive towards less use of cars in the town centres. Many developers have latched onto this and have included storage for bicycles in housing developments, instead of parking spaces.
Perhaps TDC should take this policy further and insist that the next store in Westwood Cross has a large bike rack and a bus stop and only has a few parking spaces for people registered as disabled. That at least would give a level playing field for Thanet's businesses.
(Climbs off hobby horse).
Fred
Simon, sorry to go on, but I find the explanation of the extra money to the Chief Exec office rather dismissive. In my experience, reorganisations are almost always sinister. Especially when it results in funds bring accounted for differently. What "other functions"?
ReplyDeleteIn truth the TC is a curates egg
ReplyDeleteThe expression "a curate's egg" originally meant something that is partly good and partly bad, but as a result is entirely spoilt.
Steve Kilbee
Reorganisations also cost alot of money, has any money been saved..?
ReplyDelete